จบแล้วหรอ?
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 611
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 32
ผลประกอบการไร้ค่า ช่วยอุ้มราคาหุ้นไม่ได้ครับ เมื่อเกิด recession หรือ financial crisisziannoom เขียน:ต้องรอดูว่างบที่ออกมาดีพร้อมปันผลเป็นของแถมจะยันให้ไม่แดงเหมือน ตปทคืนนี้ที่แดงยกแผงได้ไม๊
ลองมองกลับไปตอน subprime ดูก็ได้ครับ(แต่ไม่ได้บอกว่ารอบนี้เหมือน subprime crisis นะคับ)
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 1583
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 33
aonzzung เขียน:ผลประกอบการไร้ค่า ช่วยอุ้มราคาหุ้นไม่ได้ครับ เมื่อเกิด recession หรือ financial crisisziannoom เขียน:ต้องรอดูว่างบที่ออกมาดีพร้อมปันผลเป็นของแถมจะยันให้ไม่แดงเหมือน ตปทคืนนี้ที่แดงยกแผงได้ไม๊
ลองมองกลับไปตอน subprime ดูก็ได้ครับ(แต่ไม่ได้บอกว่ารอบนี้เหมือน subprime crisis นะคับ)
At that time, there were force-sellings krab,..
This time, financial firms in the US and EU are still at firm balance sheet krab..
There is no need to get cash back to their countries..
At the worst scenario, stock prices can decline to at the level that provide 10% dividend yield for the purchasers.
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 611
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 34
Yes, this time is different.Real-VI เขียน:aonzzung เขียน:ผลประกอบการไร้ค่า ช่วยอุ้มราคาหุ้นไม่ได้ครับ เมื่อเกิด recession หรือ financial crisisziannoom เขียน:ต้องรอดูว่างบที่ออกมาดีพร้อมปันผลเป็นของแถมจะยันให้ไม่แดงเหมือน ตปทคืนนี้ที่แดงยกแผงได้ไม๊
ลองมองกลับไปตอน subprime ดูก็ได้ครับ(แต่ไม่ได้บอกว่ารอบนี้เหมือน subprime crisis นะคับ)
At that time, there were force-sellings krab,..
This time, financial firms in the US and EU are still at firm balance sheet krab..
There is no need to get cash back to their countries..
At the worst scenario, stock prices can decline to at the level that provide 10% dividend yield for the purchasers.
Although they don't need to get cash back to their country, but they are switching their money to other alternatives such as gold.
Negative outlook can cause a lot of stock decline.
Anyway, I like it this way since there would be opportunities behind that.
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 2141
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 35
Who are they kub???aonzzung เขียน: Yes, this time is different.
Although they don't need to get cash back to their country, but they are switching their money to other alternatives such as gold.
Negative outlook can cause a lot of stock decline.
Anyway, I like it this way since there would be opportunities behind that.
Stocks have never been more attractive than this on valuation outlook
Successful veterans are betting against a double dip, Warren is one of em. If you have noticed, the markets are filled with crazy votility through out the day. The VIX is going wild. Regardless, if you see how the markets move.... there is clearly mad buying force, then selling force, then buying force, then selling force.... and it goes on..... ends up with net selling though
The co-ordinated purchases likely are not coming from retailers. They are always busy panicking.
Just an observation. Not implying anything.
Retailers don't know what the net effect of a downgrade is. They just know it's bad. And the general rule of thumb is, when it's bad, sell.
The whole principle is "a stock is good when its green and bad when its red"
Messed up.
M aterial catalyst
A ttitude & Perception
D isclipine
A ttitude & Perception
D isclipine
- Linzhi
- สมาชิกกิตติมศักดิ์
- โพสต์: 1522
- ผู้ติดตาม: 1
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 37
เมกากับยุโรปคงยังจบยาก แต่เอเชียจะจบต่อเมื่อเราแยกตัวเองออกจากตลาดเหล่านั้นได้
ไม่ใช่ลงตามกัน ทั้ง ๆ ที่บางส่วนก็ไม่เกี่ยวกันเท่าไหร่
ไม่ใช่ลงตามกัน ทั้ง ๆ ที่บางส่วนก็ไม่เกี่ยวกันเท่าไหร่
ก้าวช้า ๆ และเชื่อในปาฎิหารย์ของหุ้นเปลี่ยนชีวิต
There is no secret ingredient. It's just you.
There is no secret ingredient. It's just you.
-
- สมาชิกสมาคมนักลงทุนเน้นคุณค่า
- โพสต์: 957
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 38
เห็นด้วย ครับ แต่ปัจจัยอะไรที่ต้องใช้และต้องการเวลาเท่าไรให้ปฏิบัติการนี้สำเร็จLinzhi เขียน:เมกากับยุโรปคงยังจบยาก แต่เอเชียจะจบต่อเมื่อเราแยกตัวเองออกจากตลาดเหล่านั้นได้
ไม่ใช่ลงตามกัน ทั้ง ๆ ที่บางส่วนก็ไม่เกี่ยวกันเท่าไหร่
แนะนำหน่อยครับ เผื่อจะสังเกตุทันเหตุการณ์ (กลัวพวกมาหลอก ปล้นเงินชาวเอเชียไปอีกรอบ ครับ เพราะดูถ้าท่านเหล่านั้นอาจแจกปืน(เงิน)ให้โจรสลัดออกปล้นเพิ่มอีกรอบ แล้ว ครับ)
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 69
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 39
คิดว่าน่าจะจบแล้วครับ วิกฤตรอบนี้ ได้พี่หยวนช่วยไว้
Yuan Climbs to 17-Year High Against the Dollar
แต่ก็ไม่รู้จะช่วยได้มากเท่าไหร่
Yuan Climbs to 17-Year High Against the Dollar
แต่ก็ไม่รู้จะช่วยได้มากเท่าไหร่
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 504
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 40
ความเห็นส่วนตัวผมว่าเพิ่งเริ่มอะครับ
ที่ทำๆกันอยู่ตอนนี้ยุโรปแค่ยื้อเวลาไปก่อนเท่านั้น
เพื่อให้สถาบันการเงินเตรียมตัว, เตรียมใจ เตรียมสถาพคล่องไว้
ลดผลกระทบที่จะเกิดขึ้นให้น้อยที่สุด
จะหนักเบาแค่ไหนต้องตามต่อไปครับ
ที่ทำๆกันอยู่ตอนนี้ยุโรปแค่ยื้อเวลาไปก่อนเท่านั้น
เพื่อให้สถาบันการเงินเตรียมตัว, เตรียมใจ เตรียมสถาพคล่องไว้
ลดผลกระทบที่จะเกิดขึ้นให้น้อยที่สุด
จะหนักเบาแค่ไหนต้องตามต่อไปครับ
ปัจจุบันขณะ
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 551
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 42
I personally totally agree with you multipleceilings. The answer is in your post anyway!! Nice comment!multipleceilings เขียน:Who are they kub???aonzzung เขียน: Yes, this time is different.
Although they don't need to get cash back to their country, but they are switching their money to other alternatives such as gold.
Negative outlook can cause a lot of stock decline.
Anyway, I like it this way since there would be opportunities behind that.
Stocks have never been more attractive than this on valuation outlook
Successful veterans are betting against a double dip, Warren is one of em. If you have noticed, the markets are filled with crazy votility through out the day. The VIX is going wild. Regardless, if you see how the markets move.... there is clearly mad buying force, then selling force, then buying force, then selling force.... and it goes on..... ends up with net selling though
The co-ordinated purchases likely are not coming from retailers. They are always busy panicking.
Just an observation. Not implying anything.
Retailers don't know what the net effect of a downgrade is. They just know it's bad. And the general rule of thumb is, when it's bad, sell.
The whole principle is "a stock is good when its green and bad when its red"
Messed up.
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 872
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 43
วิกฤติ? มันยังไม่เริ่มเลยรึเปล่า?
อย่างน้อยก็ในสายตาคนเหล่านี้
More executives at Standard & Poor’s 500 Index companies are buying their stock than any time since the depths of the credit crisis after valuations plunged 25 percent below their five-decade average.
Sixty-six insiders at 50 companies bought shares between Aug. 3 and Aug. 9, the most since the five days ended March 9, 2009, when the benchmark index for U.S. equities reached a 12- year low, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Morgan Stanley (MS) Chief Executive Officer James Gorman and two other managers purchased 175,000 shares of the New York-based bank as the shares fell to the lowest level since March 2009, according to filings with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.
อย่างน้อยก็ในสายตาคนเหล่านี้
More executives at Standard & Poor’s 500 Index companies are buying their stock than any time since the depths of the credit crisis after valuations plunged 25 percent below their five-decade average.
Sixty-six insiders at 50 companies bought shares between Aug. 3 and Aug. 9, the most since the five days ended March 9, 2009, when the benchmark index for U.S. equities reached a 12- year low, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Morgan Stanley (MS) Chief Executive Officer James Gorman and two other managers purchased 175,000 shares of the New York-based bank as the shares fell to the lowest level since March 2009, according to filings with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.
- roronoa
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 142
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 45
นานาจิตตังตรับ กว่าจะรู้ผลจริงๆก็เมื่อมันเกิดแล้ว
พวกตัวใหญ่ๆ ข้อมูลแน่นปั้ก เงินเดือนเป็นสิบล้าน ร้อยล้าน
มันยังทายผิดออกบ่อยๆ
นับประสาอะไรกับเรารายย่อย ข้อมูลก็น้อยกะจ้อยร่อย
ได้แต่ประเมิณ (เดา) กันไปตามมีตามเกิด
คนไม่มีหุ้นก็เชียร์ลง มีทรรศนะคติในแง่ร้ายกับเรื่องนี้
ช่วงนี้ ผมสังเกตุจากหลายๆกระทู้ บางท่าน ไม่มีหุ้นแล้ว ขายหมดแล้ว
ก็จะมองว่ายังไม่จบ เชียร์ลงตลอดและมักจะเลือกpost แต่ข่าวร้าย
คนมีหุ้น(แบบผม) ก็ยังมีทรรศนะคติในเชิงบวกอยู่
ข่าวดีมา ข่าวร้ายมา รับได้หมด และพร้อมที่จะรับความเสี่ยงตลอดเวลา
เพราะฉะนั้น ด้วยลักษณะคำถามเชิงเปิด
ผู้ post ผมเชื่อว่าเกือบทุกคน มี bias แน่นอน
ดูจากคำตอบ ได้เลยว่า ใครมีหุ้นเยอะ หุ้นน้อย ใครมีหุ้น ไม่มีหุ้น
ส่วนตัวคิดว่าตอนนี้ยังไม่จบ ยังไงก็แล้วแต่ ช่างมันครับ
เพราะสุดท้ายแล้วเดี๋ยวมันก็จบอยู่ดี
เหมือนนำท่วมแหละครับต้นไม้ตายหมด
แต่หลังน้ำลดแล้ว เมล็ดผลงอกเงยเกิดใหม่
ใครเป็นพริกใครเป็นหญ้า เดี๋ยวรู้
พวกตัวใหญ่ๆ ข้อมูลแน่นปั้ก เงินเดือนเป็นสิบล้าน ร้อยล้าน
มันยังทายผิดออกบ่อยๆ
นับประสาอะไรกับเรารายย่อย ข้อมูลก็น้อยกะจ้อยร่อย
ได้แต่ประเมิณ (เดา) กันไปตามมีตามเกิด
คนไม่มีหุ้นก็เชียร์ลง มีทรรศนะคติในแง่ร้ายกับเรื่องนี้
ช่วงนี้ ผมสังเกตุจากหลายๆกระทู้ บางท่าน ไม่มีหุ้นแล้ว ขายหมดแล้ว
ก็จะมองว่ายังไม่จบ เชียร์ลงตลอดและมักจะเลือกpost แต่ข่าวร้าย
คนมีหุ้น(แบบผม) ก็ยังมีทรรศนะคติในเชิงบวกอยู่
ข่าวดีมา ข่าวร้ายมา รับได้หมด และพร้อมที่จะรับความเสี่ยงตลอดเวลา
เพราะฉะนั้น ด้วยลักษณะคำถามเชิงเปิด
ผู้ post ผมเชื่อว่าเกือบทุกคน มี bias แน่นอน
ดูจากคำตอบ ได้เลยว่า ใครมีหุ้นเยอะ หุ้นน้อย ใครมีหุ้น ไม่มีหุ้น
ส่วนตัวคิดว่าตอนนี้ยังไม่จบ ยังไงก็แล้วแต่ ช่างมันครับ
เพราะสุดท้ายแล้วเดี๋ยวมันก็จบอยู่ดี
เหมือนนำท่วมแหละครับต้นไม้ตายหมด
แต่หลังน้ำลดแล้ว เมล็ดผลงอกเงยเกิดใหม่
ใครเป็นพริกใครเป็นหญ้า เดี๋ยวรู้
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 2141
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 47
^^ in all honest truth, didnt seem to cause as much of a panic as when S&P downgraded shit....Mp808 เขียน:guess it's not over.
Germany growing at 0.1% is something to worry about.
the market is really something
M aterial catalyst
A ttitude & Perception
D isclipine
A ttitude & Perception
D isclipine
- Mp808
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 254
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 48
Yea, I guess the shock factor is not as high, but I find it more disturbing.
If Germany (the biggest economy in the EU, the leader) is not growing, then the future looks grim for the near future.
The Good: China
The Bad: USA
The Ugly: EU
If Germany (the biggest economy in the EU, the leader) is not growing, then the future looks grim for the near future.
The Good: China
The Bad: USA
The Ugly: EU
Winter is coming...
-
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 2141
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 49
^^ u seen this?
Investors Downgrade S&P, Buy Treasuries
Eleven days after lowering the credit rating on the U.S. for the first time, Standard & Poor’s is suffering a downgrade among global investors as American bonds are proving world beaters -- undermining S&P’s mathematical assumptions -- and prompting disbelief among political scientists months after the company upgraded China because of the stability fostered by Communist Party rule.
Since S&P, the New York-based subsidiary of McGraw-Hill Cos., dropped the U.S. to AA+ from AAA on Aug. 5, the yield on the 10-year Treasury note, a benchmark for everything from home mortgages to car loans, has declined to as low as 2.03 percent from a high this year of 3.77 percent, with American debt on pace in August for the biggest monthly gain since December 2008. Interest rates on American bonds are lower today than on most of the countries with AAA ratings by S&P and the Treasury recently financed its outstanding debt at the lowest cost ever.
If anything, the decision from S&P, the largest ratings provider, resulted in an upgrade of U.S. securities as the American bond market outperformed world bond indexes during the period since the downgrade by S&P. Moody’s Investors Service and Fitch Ratings, the two next biggest rating companies, affirmed their AAA rankings on the U.S.
“The market has upgraded U.S. Treasuries,” said Andrew Johnson, the head of investment-grade fixed-income in Chicago at Neuberger Berman Fixed Income LLC, which oversees $85 billion. “Treasuries are still where people run to hide at least temporarily and that’s what we’ve seen over the past week.”
$2 Trillion Error
S&P made its decision, saying the U.S. government is becoming “less stable, less effective and less predictable,” even after acknowledging to the Treasury Department a $2 trillion error in its calculations that by its own methodology could have prevented any change from a AAA rating. Since S&P still insisted on downgrading the U.S. eight months after raising China’s rating, the company’s credibility has come under increasing scrutiny.
“It was really kind of bizarre that they’ve become political analysts,” said Thomas Mann, a congressional scholar at the Washington-based Brookings Institution. “I certainly never look to any of the three rating agencies as a source of expertise, knowledge or wisdom on the political system.”
When Warren Buffett was asked about S&P’s decision, the billionaire chairman of Berkshire Hathaway Inc. said the U.S. should have been upgraded to “quadruple-A.”
The cut left the U.S., whose currency accounts for about 60 percent of the world’s reserves, rated below at least 15 other nations and on the same level as Belgium, which hasn’t had a government since June 2010.
Debt-to-GDP
S&P said in July that $4 trillion in budget cuts could be enough for the U.S. to maintain its top grade. Lawmakers agreed on Aug. 2 to raise the nation’s $14.3 trillion debt ceiling and put in place a plan for $2.4 trillion in spending reductions over the next 10 years. When S&P conferred with the Treasury Department before announcing the downgrade, government officials said the firm had overestimated the future national debt by $2 trillion.
S&P changed the numbers and said the error didn’t affect its conclusions that the U.S.’s debt-to-gross domestic product ratio will probably continue to rise in the next decade. S&P “chose to proceed with their flawed judgment by simply changing their principal rationale for their credit rating decision from an economic one to a political one,” John Bellows, acting assistant secretary at the Treasury, wrote on the department’s website.
The Securities and Exchange Commission is scrutinizing the method S&P used to cut the U.S.’s credit rating and whether the firm properly protected the confidential decision, according to a person with direct knowledge of the matter.
Treasury Yields Fall
SEC inspectors are examining S&P’s policies for conducting such analyses and whether those procedures were followed when the firm downgraded the U.S., said the person, who declined to be identified because the inquiry isn’t public.
Ed Sweeney, an S&P spokesman, said the firm doesn’t discuss specific interactions it has with regulators.
While S&P’s downgrade contributed to an equity rout that erased about $6.1 trillion from global stocks between July 26 and Aug. 12, the bond market responded by driving up prices and sending yields to record lows. Yields on 10-year U.S. Treasuries, which drop when demand rises, closed at 2.11 percent on Aug. 10, a percentage point below the 3.1 percent yield on AAA rated French debt and two points below Belgian bonds’ 4.1 percent yield.
‘Risk-Free’
Buyers lined up for U.S. debt at last week’s auctions. The Treasury paid a record-low average yield of 2.13 percent on $72 billion of 10- and 30-year notes and bonds, saving taxpayers $647 million in interest payments during the life of the debt, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
“The market is saying S&P’s rating decision is wrong,” Edward Marrinan, the head of macro credit strategy at RBS Securities in Stamford, Connecticut, said in a telephone interview on Aug. 10. “The Treasury bond is still seen as the ultimate risk-free security.”
S&P said in the Aug. 5 report that the U.S.’s ratio of debt to GDP would reach 79 percent in 2015 and 85 percent by 2021. In 2009, when the rater affirmed the U.S.’s AAA rating, analysts wrote that the ratio would approach 90 percent by 2013.
“They have made no connection between any minimum required metrics and various ratings tiers,” Glenn Reynolds, chief executive officer of bond research firm CreditSights Inc., said in an e-mail. “S&P took a soft variable and used it to downgrade the U.S. on a very narrow set of forward political assumptions.”
‘So AA+’
The decision to cut the rating was reached by a team of sovereign debt analysts, including Toronto-based Nikola Swann, London-based David Beers and John Chambers, who works in New York. They score countries on five criteria, including political risks and debt burden. Sweeney, the S&P spokesman, declined to say how the U.S. did in those categories or how many analysts were on the committee.
Swann, the lead author of S&P’s report, said the U.S. lost the top grade because political leaders failed to demonstrate that they were serious about cutting the national debt.
“We really just came to the view that if it’s anything less than $4 trillion it’s hard to argue they’re seriously doing anything about it,” Swann said at conference with reporters on Aug. 9. “So we came to the view, well they’re not seriously doing anything about it, so AA+.”
Literature Degrees
Swann worked as an economist in Canada’s Department of Finance prior to joining the rating company in 2002. Beers, managing director of sovereign ratings, worked at Salomon Brothers before joining S&P in 1990, and has a master’s degree in economics from the London School of Economics. Chambers studied literature at Grinnell College in Iowa and Columbia University in New York.
“You have to work on Capitol Hill to know what the sausage factory looks like,” Robert Auerbach, who worked in Congress for 11 years and is now a professor of public affairs at the University of Texas in Austin, said in a telephone interview on Aug. 11. “The people at S&P are entirely wrong. This is how a democracy works.”
Fitch affirmed its AAA rating for the U.S. today and said the outlook is stable. New York-based Moody’s reiterated its top Aaa rating for the U.S. in an Aug. 8 report, calling the debt accord a “positive step.” Steven Hess, Moody’s senior credit officer, said the second-biggest ratings provider examines “actual policies as opposed to the political debate.”
Reserve Currency
“We now see at least both parties having the same goal of deficit and debt reduction over the long term, even though more needs to be done,” Hess said in a telephone interview that day. “More important to us than how contentious the process is, does it produce results?”
Moody’s, which has rated the U.S. Aaa since 1917, said in the report that the dollar’s role as the world’s main reserve currency means “the U.S. government can support higher debt levels than other governments.” The greenback represents 60.7 percent of the world’s currency reserves, compared with 26.6 percent for the euro, which has the next biggest portion, according to the International Monetary Fund in Washington.
The dollar climbed against 14 of its 16 major peers last week as investors sought a refuge for their assets with markets around the world fluctuating. Treasuries have returned 2.27 percent this month, compared with 1.35 percent for government debt worldwide excluding U.S. bonds, according to Bank of America Merrill Lynch index data.
Treasury Holdings
Asian investors are likely to retain their Treasury holdings for now, with options limited by the region’s foreign- exchange rate policies. Japan, the second-largest international investor in American government debt behind China, sees no problem with trust in the securities, a Japanese government official said on condition of anonymity. Russia said the one- step cut “can be ignored.”
China increased its holdings of U.S. government debt by 0.5 percent to $1.17 trillion in June, the third straight monthly increase, while other foreign investors were sellers of Treasuries for the first time since 2009, according to data released yesterday by the Treasury Department.
The gap between political parties has grown, said former Congressman Bill Frenzel, who served as the ranking Republican on the House Budget Committee. In the Senate, the Republican minority has used the filibuster to block debate more frequently, with the number of cloture votes -- attempts to break a filibuster -- doubling to 112 from 2007 to 2008 from 54 in 2005 to 2006, when the Democrats were in the minority, according to data on the body’s website.
‘So Highly Polarized’
“Members of Congress and the voting blocs that support them seem to be so highly polarized that there is no opportunity to achieve a compromise,” Frenzel said in a telephone interview. “S&P is smart enough to understand that you can’t balance the budget on discretionary spending.”
Marketable U.S. government debt outstanding has risen to $9.4 trillion from $4.34 trillion in mid-2007 as the government borrowed to bail out the nation’s banking system and lift the economy out of recession. The U.S. went from budget surpluses averaging $139.7 billion from 1998 through 2001 to a deficit of $1.29 trillion last year, Bloomberg data show. That hasn’t raised the country’s borrowing costs. Average debt yields of 1.5 percent in July compare with 6.54 percent in 2000.
‘Fuel a Bubble’
S&P, Moody’s and Fitch engaged in a “race to the bottom” to assign top grades to mortgage-backed securities at the request of the banks that paid them, according to a report released by a Senate panel in April. About 90 percent of AAA rated bonds backed by subprime mortgages from 2006 and 2007 were later downgraded to junk status, the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations said in the report.
The ratings companies “helped fuel a bubble which, when popped, caused government deficits to explode,” said Robert Reischauer, who led the Congressional Budget Office from 1989 to 1995. “Then the same group comes back to you and says, ‘We’re worried about your ability to deal with these deficits.’”
China has been upgraded five times by S&P since 1999, Bloomberg data show. “We believe the Chinese authorities would respond to future threats to financial stability with timely measures, based on our observations over the past two years,” S&P said Dec. 16 in a statement.
The Communist Party of China has a “monopoly” on power, meaning the country isn’t an electoral democracy, according to Freedom House. The nine-member Politburo Standing Committee sets policy, the Washington-based human-rights advocacy group says on its website.
‘Modest Indebtedness’
S&P also cited China’s “modest indebtedness” and “exceptional” growth potential as reasons for the one-step upgrade to AA-. The country was cut one level in July 1999 to BBB from BBB+, China’s only downgrade since it was assigned a ranking in 1992, as S&P warned that government spending was hiding the extent of the nation’s economic slowdown.
In the U.S., S&P’s forecasts changed as the debt ceiling approached. On April 18, S&P said that there was a one-in-three chance of a downgrade within two years. Three months later, the company said the likelihood had risen to 50 percent in the next 90 days. The Senate voted Aug. 1 to raise the nation’s debt ceiling for the 79th time since 1960.
‘Downright Opaque’
While lawmakers pushed the debt-limit debate to the deadline set by Treasury, protracted disputes led to compromises in the past. A bipartisan bill to balance the U.S. budget won congressional approval in 1997 after government shutdowns and a 2 1/2 year tug-of-war between a Republican Congress and Democratic President Bill Clinton. The bill achieved most of its savings by slowing the growth of Medicare and Medicaid.
Basing credit ratings on politics makes them “wholly arbitrary and downright opaque,” CreditSights’ Reynolds wrote in an Aug. 7 report. By relying on political analysis to downgrade the U.S., S&P is discounting the views of bond investors, who’ve shown they’re willing to lend to the U.S. at rates that imply almost no risk, he said.
“There are two things you can count on -- the market is smarter than S&P and the U.S. will not default,” Reynolds said.
Investors Downgrade S&P, Buy Treasuries
Eleven days after lowering the credit rating on the U.S. for the first time, Standard & Poor’s is suffering a downgrade among global investors as American bonds are proving world beaters -- undermining S&P’s mathematical assumptions -- and prompting disbelief among political scientists months after the company upgraded China because of the stability fostered by Communist Party rule.
Since S&P, the New York-based subsidiary of McGraw-Hill Cos., dropped the U.S. to AA+ from AAA on Aug. 5, the yield on the 10-year Treasury note, a benchmark for everything from home mortgages to car loans, has declined to as low as 2.03 percent from a high this year of 3.77 percent, with American debt on pace in August for the biggest monthly gain since December 2008. Interest rates on American bonds are lower today than on most of the countries with AAA ratings by S&P and the Treasury recently financed its outstanding debt at the lowest cost ever.
If anything, the decision from S&P, the largest ratings provider, resulted in an upgrade of U.S. securities as the American bond market outperformed world bond indexes during the period since the downgrade by S&P. Moody’s Investors Service and Fitch Ratings, the two next biggest rating companies, affirmed their AAA rankings on the U.S.
“The market has upgraded U.S. Treasuries,” said Andrew Johnson, the head of investment-grade fixed-income in Chicago at Neuberger Berman Fixed Income LLC, which oversees $85 billion. “Treasuries are still where people run to hide at least temporarily and that’s what we’ve seen over the past week.”
$2 Trillion Error
S&P made its decision, saying the U.S. government is becoming “less stable, less effective and less predictable,” even after acknowledging to the Treasury Department a $2 trillion error in its calculations that by its own methodology could have prevented any change from a AAA rating. Since S&P still insisted on downgrading the U.S. eight months after raising China’s rating, the company’s credibility has come under increasing scrutiny.
“It was really kind of bizarre that they’ve become political analysts,” said Thomas Mann, a congressional scholar at the Washington-based Brookings Institution. “I certainly never look to any of the three rating agencies as a source of expertise, knowledge or wisdom on the political system.”
When Warren Buffett was asked about S&P’s decision, the billionaire chairman of Berkshire Hathaway Inc. said the U.S. should have been upgraded to “quadruple-A.”
The cut left the U.S., whose currency accounts for about 60 percent of the world’s reserves, rated below at least 15 other nations and on the same level as Belgium, which hasn’t had a government since June 2010.
Debt-to-GDP
S&P said in July that $4 trillion in budget cuts could be enough for the U.S. to maintain its top grade. Lawmakers agreed on Aug. 2 to raise the nation’s $14.3 trillion debt ceiling and put in place a plan for $2.4 trillion in spending reductions over the next 10 years. When S&P conferred with the Treasury Department before announcing the downgrade, government officials said the firm had overestimated the future national debt by $2 trillion.
S&P changed the numbers and said the error didn’t affect its conclusions that the U.S.’s debt-to-gross domestic product ratio will probably continue to rise in the next decade. S&P “chose to proceed with their flawed judgment by simply changing their principal rationale for their credit rating decision from an economic one to a political one,” John Bellows, acting assistant secretary at the Treasury, wrote on the department’s website.
The Securities and Exchange Commission is scrutinizing the method S&P used to cut the U.S.’s credit rating and whether the firm properly protected the confidential decision, according to a person with direct knowledge of the matter.
Treasury Yields Fall
SEC inspectors are examining S&P’s policies for conducting such analyses and whether those procedures were followed when the firm downgraded the U.S., said the person, who declined to be identified because the inquiry isn’t public.
Ed Sweeney, an S&P spokesman, said the firm doesn’t discuss specific interactions it has with regulators.
While S&P’s downgrade contributed to an equity rout that erased about $6.1 trillion from global stocks between July 26 and Aug. 12, the bond market responded by driving up prices and sending yields to record lows. Yields on 10-year U.S. Treasuries, which drop when demand rises, closed at 2.11 percent on Aug. 10, a percentage point below the 3.1 percent yield on AAA rated French debt and two points below Belgian bonds’ 4.1 percent yield.
‘Risk-Free’
Buyers lined up for U.S. debt at last week’s auctions. The Treasury paid a record-low average yield of 2.13 percent on $72 billion of 10- and 30-year notes and bonds, saving taxpayers $647 million in interest payments during the life of the debt, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
“The market is saying S&P’s rating decision is wrong,” Edward Marrinan, the head of macro credit strategy at RBS Securities in Stamford, Connecticut, said in a telephone interview on Aug. 10. “The Treasury bond is still seen as the ultimate risk-free security.”
S&P said in the Aug. 5 report that the U.S.’s ratio of debt to GDP would reach 79 percent in 2015 and 85 percent by 2021. In 2009, when the rater affirmed the U.S.’s AAA rating, analysts wrote that the ratio would approach 90 percent by 2013.
“They have made no connection between any minimum required metrics and various ratings tiers,” Glenn Reynolds, chief executive officer of bond research firm CreditSights Inc., said in an e-mail. “S&P took a soft variable and used it to downgrade the U.S. on a very narrow set of forward political assumptions.”
‘So AA+’
The decision to cut the rating was reached by a team of sovereign debt analysts, including Toronto-based Nikola Swann, London-based David Beers and John Chambers, who works in New York. They score countries on five criteria, including political risks and debt burden. Sweeney, the S&P spokesman, declined to say how the U.S. did in those categories or how many analysts were on the committee.
Swann, the lead author of S&P’s report, said the U.S. lost the top grade because political leaders failed to demonstrate that they were serious about cutting the national debt.
“We really just came to the view that if it’s anything less than $4 trillion it’s hard to argue they’re seriously doing anything about it,” Swann said at conference with reporters on Aug. 9. “So we came to the view, well they’re not seriously doing anything about it, so AA+.”
Literature Degrees
Swann worked as an economist in Canada’s Department of Finance prior to joining the rating company in 2002. Beers, managing director of sovereign ratings, worked at Salomon Brothers before joining S&P in 1990, and has a master’s degree in economics from the London School of Economics. Chambers studied literature at Grinnell College in Iowa and Columbia University in New York.
“You have to work on Capitol Hill to know what the sausage factory looks like,” Robert Auerbach, who worked in Congress for 11 years and is now a professor of public affairs at the University of Texas in Austin, said in a telephone interview on Aug. 11. “The people at S&P are entirely wrong. This is how a democracy works.”
Fitch affirmed its AAA rating for the U.S. today and said the outlook is stable. New York-based Moody’s reiterated its top Aaa rating for the U.S. in an Aug. 8 report, calling the debt accord a “positive step.” Steven Hess, Moody’s senior credit officer, said the second-biggest ratings provider examines “actual policies as opposed to the political debate.”
Reserve Currency
“We now see at least both parties having the same goal of deficit and debt reduction over the long term, even though more needs to be done,” Hess said in a telephone interview that day. “More important to us than how contentious the process is, does it produce results?”
Moody’s, which has rated the U.S. Aaa since 1917, said in the report that the dollar’s role as the world’s main reserve currency means “the U.S. government can support higher debt levels than other governments.” The greenback represents 60.7 percent of the world’s currency reserves, compared with 26.6 percent for the euro, which has the next biggest portion, according to the International Monetary Fund in Washington.
The dollar climbed against 14 of its 16 major peers last week as investors sought a refuge for their assets with markets around the world fluctuating. Treasuries have returned 2.27 percent this month, compared with 1.35 percent for government debt worldwide excluding U.S. bonds, according to Bank of America Merrill Lynch index data.
Treasury Holdings
Asian investors are likely to retain their Treasury holdings for now, with options limited by the region’s foreign- exchange rate policies. Japan, the second-largest international investor in American government debt behind China, sees no problem with trust in the securities, a Japanese government official said on condition of anonymity. Russia said the one- step cut “can be ignored.”
China increased its holdings of U.S. government debt by 0.5 percent to $1.17 trillion in June, the third straight monthly increase, while other foreign investors were sellers of Treasuries for the first time since 2009, according to data released yesterday by the Treasury Department.
The gap between political parties has grown, said former Congressman Bill Frenzel, who served as the ranking Republican on the House Budget Committee. In the Senate, the Republican minority has used the filibuster to block debate more frequently, with the number of cloture votes -- attempts to break a filibuster -- doubling to 112 from 2007 to 2008 from 54 in 2005 to 2006, when the Democrats were in the minority, according to data on the body’s website.
‘So Highly Polarized’
“Members of Congress and the voting blocs that support them seem to be so highly polarized that there is no opportunity to achieve a compromise,” Frenzel said in a telephone interview. “S&P is smart enough to understand that you can’t balance the budget on discretionary spending.”
Marketable U.S. government debt outstanding has risen to $9.4 trillion from $4.34 trillion in mid-2007 as the government borrowed to bail out the nation’s banking system and lift the economy out of recession. The U.S. went from budget surpluses averaging $139.7 billion from 1998 through 2001 to a deficit of $1.29 trillion last year, Bloomberg data show. That hasn’t raised the country’s borrowing costs. Average debt yields of 1.5 percent in July compare with 6.54 percent in 2000.
‘Fuel a Bubble’
S&P, Moody’s and Fitch engaged in a “race to the bottom” to assign top grades to mortgage-backed securities at the request of the banks that paid them, according to a report released by a Senate panel in April. About 90 percent of AAA rated bonds backed by subprime mortgages from 2006 and 2007 were later downgraded to junk status, the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations said in the report.
The ratings companies “helped fuel a bubble which, when popped, caused government deficits to explode,” said Robert Reischauer, who led the Congressional Budget Office from 1989 to 1995. “Then the same group comes back to you and says, ‘We’re worried about your ability to deal with these deficits.’”
China has been upgraded five times by S&P since 1999, Bloomberg data show. “We believe the Chinese authorities would respond to future threats to financial stability with timely measures, based on our observations over the past two years,” S&P said Dec. 16 in a statement.
The Communist Party of China has a “monopoly” on power, meaning the country isn’t an electoral democracy, according to Freedom House. The nine-member Politburo Standing Committee sets policy, the Washington-based human-rights advocacy group says on its website.
‘Modest Indebtedness’
S&P also cited China’s “modest indebtedness” and “exceptional” growth potential as reasons for the one-step upgrade to AA-. The country was cut one level in July 1999 to BBB from BBB+, China’s only downgrade since it was assigned a ranking in 1992, as S&P warned that government spending was hiding the extent of the nation’s economic slowdown.
In the U.S., S&P’s forecasts changed as the debt ceiling approached. On April 18, S&P said that there was a one-in-three chance of a downgrade within two years. Three months later, the company said the likelihood had risen to 50 percent in the next 90 days. The Senate voted Aug. 1 to raise the nation’s debt ceiling for the 79th time since 1960.
‘Downright Opaque’
While lawmakers pushed the debt-limit debate to the deadline set by Treasury, protracted disputes led to compromises in the past. A bipartisan bill to balance the U.S. budget won congressional approval in 1997 after government shutdowns and a 2 1/2 year tug-of-war between a Republican Congress and Democratic President Bill Clinton. The bill achieved most of its savings by slowing the growth of Medicare and Medicaid.
Basing credit ratings on politics makes them “wholly arbitrary and downright opaque,” CreditSights’ Reynolds wrote in an Aug. 7 report. By relying on political analysis to downgrade the U.S., S&P is discounting the views of bond investors, who’ve shown they’re willing to lend to the U.S. at rates that imply almost no risk, he said.
“There are two things you can count on -- the market is smarter than S&P and the U.S. will not default,” Reynolds said.
M aterial catalyst
A ttitude & Perception
D isclipine
A ttitude & Perception
D isclipine
- chukieat30
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 3531
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 56
คลื่นจริงมาแล้วครับ งดนำเรือออกจากฝั่งครับ
คนที่อาบแดด อยู่ลุกขึ้นเข้าฝั่ง ก่อนจะโต้คลื่น
หลายๆตัวเลขทางเศรษฐกิจมันไปละม้ายคล้าย วิกฤติมากขึ้นทุกที
คนที่อาบแดด อยู่ลุกขึ้นเข้าฝั่ง ก่อนจะโต้คลื่น
หลายๆตัวเลขทางเศรษฐกิจมันไปละม้ายคล้าย วิกฤติมากขึ้นทุกที
ถ้าคุณตีลูกตามไทเกอร์ คุณก้ไม่มีทางจะเหนือกว่า ไทเกอร์ จงนำวงสวิงของไทเกอร์มาปรับใช้ให้เหมาะกับคุณ
หวิ่งชุนหวอซาน หวิ่งชุนยิปมันจีทคุดโด้ พื้นฐานก้มาจากหวิ่งชุน แม้ชื่อจะต่าง
แต่หวิ่งชุนก้คือ หวิ่งชุน
ทำวันนี้ให้ดี ทำพรุ่งนี้ให้ดีกว่า และทำวันข้างหน้าให้ดีที่สุด
หวิ่งชุนหวอซาน หวิ่งชุนยิปมันจีทคุดโด้ พื้นฐานก้มาจากหวิ่งชุน แม้ชื่อจะต่าง
แต่หวิ่งชุนก้คือ หวิ่งชุน
ทำวันนี้ให้ดี ทำพรุ่งนี้ให้ดีกว่า และทำวันข้างหน้าให้ดีที่สุด
- Rocker
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 4886
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 57
chukieat30 เขียน:คลื่นจริงมาแล้วครับ งดนำเรือออกจากฝั่งครับ
คนที่อาบแดด อยู่ลุกขึ้นเข้าฝั่ง ก่อนจะโต้คลื่น
หลายๆตัวเลขทางเศรษฐกิจมันไปละม้ายคล้าย วิกฤติมากขึ้นทุกที
คลื่่นจริงไม่กลัว กลัวไม่จริง เชื่อว่าTVI มีนักSurfboard ระดับ Pro and Extreme หลายท่าน เตรียมตัวจะโต้คลื่น Tsunami พร้อม ฉลาม
- chukieat30
- Verified User
- โพสต์: 3531
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 58
คลื่่นจริงไม่กลัว กลัวไม่จริง เชื่อว่าTVI มีนักSurfboard ระดับ Pro and Extreme หลายท่าน เตรียมตัวจะโต้คลื่น Tsunami พร้อม ฉลาม
ผมนึกภาพไม่ออกเลยว่า มันจะสนุกหรือเสียวครับพี่ร็อค เราไปเล่นวินเซิพบนสึนามิ
แล้ว ฉลามก้ลอยตามคลื่นมา วนเวียนใกล้เรา (คงแปลกน่าดู)
ไม่รู้จะเสียวฉลามกัด หรือ เสียวคลื่นหอบเราจม
ผมว่าไม่สึนามิหรอกครับ แค่คลื่นใหญ่หน่อย น้ำคงไม่ลึกมากรอบนี้
เพราะ รอบนี้ในประเทศนิ่งมาก
ผมนึกภาพไม่ออกเลยว่า มันจะสนุกหรือเสียวครับพี่ร็อค เราไปเล่นวินเซิพบนสึนามิ
แล้ว ฉลามก้ลอยตามคลื่นมา วนเวียนใกล้เรา (คงแปลกน่าดู)
ไม่รู้จะเสียวฉลามกัด หรือ เสียวคลื่นหอบเราจม
ผมว่าไม่สึนามิหรอกครับ แค่คลื่นใหญ่หน่อย น้ำคงไม่ลึกมากรอบนี้
เพราะ รอบนี้ในประเทศนิ่งมาก
ถ้าคุณตีลูกตามไทเกอร์ คุณก้ไม่มีทางจะเหนือกว่า ไทเกอร์ จงนำวงสวิงของไทเกอร์มาปรับใช้ให้เหมาะกับคุณ
หวิ่งชุนหวอซาน หวิ่งชุนยิปมันจีทคุดโด้ พื้นฐานก้มาจากหวิ่งชุน แม้ชื่อจะต่าง
แต่หวิ่งชุนก้คือ หวิ่งชุน
ทำวันนี้ให้ดี ทำพรุ่งนี้ให้ดีกว่า และทำวันข้างหน้าให้ดีที่สุด
หวิ่งชุนหวอซาน หวิ่งชุนยิปมันจีทคุดโด้ พื้นฐานก้มาจากหวิ่งชุน แม้ชื่อจะต่าง
แต่หวิ่งชุนก้คือ หวิ่งชุน
ทำวันนี้ให้ดี ทำพรุ่งนี้ให้ดีกว่า และทำวันข้างหน้าให้ดีที่สุด
-
- สมาชิกสมาคมนักลงทุนเน้นคุณค่า
- โพสต์: 957
- ผู้ติดตาม: 0
Re: จบแล้วหรอ?
โพสต์ที่ 59
ผมยังจำคำแนะนำเก่าๆ พี่วิบูลย์ ได้อยู่chukieat30 เขียน:คลื่่นจริงไม่กลัว กลัวไม่จริง เชื่อว่าTVI มีนักSurfboard ระดับ Pro and Extreme หลายท่าน เตรียมตัวจะโต้คลื่น Tsunami พร้อม ฉลาม
ผมนึกภาพไม่ออกเลยว่า มันจะสนุกหรือเสียวครับพี่ร็อค เราไปเล่นวินเซิพบนสึนามิ
แล้ว ฉลามก้ลอยตามคลื่นมา วนเวียนใกล้เรา (คงแปลกน่าดู)
ไม่รู้จะเสียวฉลามกัด หรือ เสียวคลื่นหอบเราจม
ผมว่าไม่สึนามิหรอกครับ แค่คลื่นใหญ่หน่อย น้ำคงไม่ลึกมากรอบนี้
เพราะ รอบนี้ในประเทศนิ่งมาก
"การลงทุนก็เหมือนการว่ายน้ำ
คุณจะไม่มีวันรู้จักการว่ายน้ำ ถ้าคุณไม่เคยลงมือว่าย
ถ้าคุณลงสระ แล้วคุณจะรู้เองว่า คุณควรจะทำอย่างไร
แต่ที่สำคัญ....อย่ากระโดลงแม่น้ำ ถ้าคุณยังไม่เคยลงสระตื้นๆ"
และรู้ตัวว่า..ตัวผมเองยัง...ไม่ใช่ นักSurfboard ระดับ Pro and Extreme ว่ายน้ำก็ยังไม่แข็ง..คงต้องหาวิธีเฉพาะตัวผมแล้วซิ